#9 / new visions in conversation with Rachel D. Latimore

We first met at the interviews for the Echoing Green Fellowship finalists. Shortly after Rachel D. Latimore became our Portfolio Manager - and we could not have imagined ourselves a more caring, genuine, and dedicated mentor and support in a professional context. Working with Rachel D. gave us a totally new understanding of transformational leadership and its impact. And we could experience it ourselves. I am beyond excited to share this conversation.

AB: There is this hunger in me for new, and more, models of transformational leadership that could also expose how diverse it can be. When we met, I was and still am so impressed by your way of leading us all as Echoing Green fellows. How did you come to think about yourself as a leader? What was the path that brought you into being interested in what leadership is?

RDL: I've been thinking about that very question frequently, in the last few months or so. For me, leadership was not so much a position that you obtain or this place that you hold, but it was more of a lifestyle. I come from a family of primarily women who are leaders, and I was placed into opportunities, even at a very young age, where I learned about the ability to influence, to encourage, to inspire and amplify. When I think about leadership, all of those things still come to mind. It's not about you necessarily having to own something for the sake of control, but it really is an opportunity to serve. How do you get to show up for people? How do you get to serve? By showing and guiding and walking alongside, right!? And learning. I truly believe that leadership is really about learning, which is probably why I've been on this, what feels like a lifelong journey of learning and advancing in my education, because the more I'm able to stretch this learning muscle, the better I'm able to understand how do I serve people better, how do I support and encourage and amplify and uplift? And in doing so, it supports me as a person myself, I learn from other people, I get a chance to have this exchange. 

AB: So walking further this path of leadership being an encouragement, an inspiration, being in a connection with others, one of the aspects that we try to explore deeper is the collective aspect of leadership. What are your thoughts about collectivising leadership or what collective leadership can be?

RDL: I think it's such an important concept to discuss and think about because Western culture tells us that it's this heroic form of leadership that advances things. But when you step back and you look at culture, you look at it from anthropology, social work, or community development perspective, then you see: it really is communities that shift culture and hold this notion of leadership, right?! It comes from this communal aspect. And as I think about why taking a collective approach to leadership matters, and as I try to explain it to other folks about why I prefer a collective model of leadership is because no one person is an island, and you can’t operate in a silo. You can't operate in isolation, and do that effectively if you're trying to create change. If you're trying to support movements. If you're trying to move an agenda forward. No one person can do that. It really does take the masses. More specifically a community, because you can have a whole group of people that are going in a direction that is not supportive. But when you step back, and you think about people who have shared interests and shared values and shared commitments to making sure that people feel seen, that they belong, that they feel heard, that they feel like they have a place: that's where leadership really shows up! That's the moment where you're able to really step into a community and share with folks that

the only way that this work can happen is if I do it in partnership with you, if we do it together, if we do it in community.

And that's really what I love about the work that you're doing with new visions: you recognize that it can't just be one person, it really has to be a community that goes along on this journey together. We are banding together for the sake of humanity and justice and innovation, and civil rights, and all of these things that help to advance our lives and our cultures and our societies moving them forward. There's so much more victory that you experience because it's not dependent upon one person's ideology, one person's thought process, but it really is about what is the collective say, because there are so many different gifts in the community. And when you pull those gifts together, you have more resources, you have more capacity, more bandwidth to really get the work done.

AB: So when we talk about collectivizing leadership, what are your ideas to break through this concept of the individual heroic leader on the front? How to practically break this individualistic approach towards leadership? I'm wondering if you have any ideas or practices that you invite into your work and world that help you challenge that.

RDL: Right now, I'm doing a lot of research around what is this notion around affinity groups, communities of practice. community-based models, professional learning communities, and all of these are spaces where there are multiple leaders. There's a space for multiple leaders and people to get a chance to collaborate, share ideas, share thinking and thought processes, they challenge each other... What I am finding in my research, and what the research is showing is that

when people feel like they belong, when people feel like there is actually a curated space for themselves there are emerging leaders that show up that you would not be able to see and traditional heroic leadership spaces.

Because not everybody shows up as a charismatic person who is able to sit in front of a room with people and speak without being nervous. Not everyone shows up in a way where they have had years of experience leading groups with titles and positions and those kinds of things, but that does not negate the capacity for other people to lead. What shows up as being super important to understand in this collective framework is that leadership manifests in different ways, there is not a particular type of leader. There are many different types of leaders. In the civil rights movement in the United States, there were leaders who were on the frontlines and marching. But then there were women who were at home, who were cooking meals for the children to eat, and making sure that folks were learning so that they can continue to go to school, etc. There were other parts of the movement that aren't as sexy, that people don't see. And it takes leadership to get those done, you know, what I mean? And it takes leadership, to be able to facilitate, just being able to keep stability, while other people are on the frontlines fighting in the fight. And so, I think that that's the power and really understanding why the collective model of leadership is important. Because everybody has a place, everybody has a role. And if you create spaces, like affinity groups, or communities of practice, or professional learning communities, it validates that and it says that everybody has a place here, everybody is welcome. Everyone belongs. And everyone's voice matters in this conversation. What we're seeing is that where there are spaces for these groups to be held and emerge, you see higher success rates because people are approaching it rather from a collective model than just from one single leader trying to influence or move a group of people.

AB: Yeah, and how much self-reflection and courage it takes to challenge it. I'm wondering, being very aware that we live in a world that is structured in a violent way and is privileging some people over others because of gender, skin color, sexual orientation, body ability, etc. how much effort does it take to infuse these collective leadership ideas? What's rolling in my head right now is: how can we normalize the practices of sharing power, especially knowing that there are certain privileged people that are oftentimes unaware of their position? How to infuse those practices in the structures that are so stiff and so comfortable with the business-as-usual?

RDL: It is challenging, I will just first name that, particularly speaking from approximate experience as a Black woman in America. It is challenging to push that envelope and to say, “Hey, there's another way that we could be doing this”. I think a lot of it is around increasing access to the table. And I don't just want to sit at your table, but I want to know, and I want to experience that my voice, that my thoughts, that the brilliance that I bring to the table (and when I say “I” I'm speaking for so many people) we want to know that not only am I sitting at this table for the aesthetic purposes, but that I have the space, the autonomy, the capacity to be able to use my voice for change, the right to use my voice as a voice of influence. And I'm not going as myself, but as Maya Angelou said in her poem “I come as one. But I stand as ten thousand”. I may show up in a space, but know that I am not showing up just as myself, but I am carrying the voices, the hearts, the dreams of people that I am in community with. It is about creating more space. When I get to the table, my voice then opens the door for more people to enter into the room. When you are in some of these very Western constrained environments, a huge part of it is in pushing for the invitation to sit at that table. And Shirley Chisholm said it best: “If they don't give you a seat at the table, bring the folding chair”! So sometimes I don't even need an invitation, but what I am going to do is press for space. Not just for myself, but really pressing for space, so that I can create more space for other people, for the community that I am in a relationship with to be able to come to this table as well! Or in another case we can say: “Hey, listen, you sit at that table, but we have a table over here, and we'll welcome you to this table! If you're open to these ideas, if you're open to humanity, and if you're open to justice, and if you're open to righteousness, and all of these things that help to advance our cultures and our societies to move forward”. Sometimes you can create space, but sometimes you can't. And you got to know how to direct your energy. You got to do this cost-benefit analysis: is it worth me having to fight so hard just to get at this table? What happens as a result of me being at this table? If the benefit outweighs all of the challenges, then yes, press in that direction. But if you realize that you will have to conform and assimilate, and you have to dumb down and you have to water down - you don't need that table! You create your own table, and you create your own space, which is what you women are doing. You're creating your own space for people to be invited in, so that you can teach, so that you can lead from that, so you can educate, so that you can create a community around that.

AB: Every time I listen to you, I'm just so inspired. And what I admire is how you balance gentleness and spirituality with being clear and radical when we talk about social justice and structural violence. How do you navigate through that and how you make it possible to embody? How have you learned that?

RDL: Through modeling, through watching other people. This is where the power of community comes in because I didn't learn this on my own, and there's no book that I could have read. I do, obviously, read a lot of books, I read a lot of material, I do a lot of research, but that is not what teaches me how to sit in this space. It is from experience, it is from being knocked down, and it's from being disappointed and challenged. It's also from watching the people who I consider to be leaders in my life, people that you will never meet because they might not be on television, or they didn't write the latest best-selling book, but they were pillars in my life and in my community. I learned that from watching my mother, I learned that from listening to my grandmother, I learned that from friends and community members who I value.I sat back and said, “Okay, I'm gonna be quiet and still, so I can sit at your feet and learn”.

Sometimes it's just to be still, and absorb and observe, so I have been very, very adamant about what I call “sitting at people's feet”, people that I admire, people that I watch from a distance. It is something about how they lead, it is something about how they move, that is inspiring for me. And that's why mentorship is so important!

That's why this notion of mentorship and sponsorship is so important because you learn so much just by sitting at someone's feet and watching them. And then you develop how you want to move through the space, how you want to move through the world, and you discover where your power is, you discover how to modulate that accordingly. 

So for me, that's what it was: it was watching other people, it was being mentored, it was sitting in community, it was sitting at the feet of leaders that no one will ever know about besides the people that are within the four blocks of this community. That's where the power of people comes into play: these people who are living in the community who are living these experiences that I learned from and I watch: that helps inform how I develop and show up as a leader.

AB: Oh, yeah, so true. “What we give attention to grows”. Just directly asking, what's the role of spirituality in your practice?

RDL: It's huge. It's foundational. And I say this, as an imperfect being, as a human with flaws. I've made mistakes daily, multiple times a day and I acknowledge that, I sit in that truth. I want to put that out there because this is not coming from someone who has it all figured out. It is from someone who is very aware and conscious of the fact that I am flawed. And in being flawed, I am still worthy, I am still powerful, I am still loved by what I call God. And there is the power that is placed inside of me because of that, and it allows me to be grounded and knowing that I am truly here in this space, having this experience as a human, for a reason. There is a purpose, there is an assignment that I've been attached to. Every day that I get up, I remember that I am on assignment. I remember I am not always perfect and I’m able to walk that out because I am human. I do experience that part of being flawed, but as long as I am able to identify and put my finger on it and say, “I'm on assignment, and this is what I have been assigned to”... And that assignment is broad, right?  It's not just one track, it's multi-hyphenated, it is a myriad of things that allow me to manifest purpose. But I'm on assignment - there is something that I am supposed to be doing and that is what drives me on the days when I don't want to get out of bed. When you're like “Where's the world going? I'm so frustrated. Why aren't people as passionate about justice or just empathetic”... But I remember that I'm here and in this time in history, for a reason. 

For me when you talk about spirituality it is being able to tap into my own spirit and the spirit that I embody through the power of God for me, that allows me to always connect to a larger picture. It is the remembrance that this is not about me being this heroic leader, it's really about me being placed on this earth to be in relationship, to be in community for a larger purpose. It always just directs me back to that when I get caught up in ego... But that's when I have to recalibrate and remind myself: “no, this isn't about me as an individual, but it is about how my assignment is tethered and connected in this network”. If you think about a tree you just see this big tree, this wide, huge trunk, with many leaves, and all and you think: “Oh, this is a tree”. But what really makes the tree strong is that underneath the ground, the roots are literally tethered together and communicating with other trees in the field, in the forest. That tree survives because it is in community and relationship and network with all of the other trees. And what you may see is this one standing trunk, but know that it is in community. This is how I like to approach my understanding of how I get to show up in the world, and so it just reminds me that I can't do this alone, you can't do this alone, none of us can do it alone, we are here to be in relationship, to be in community, and to be in contribution for a much greater purpose.

AB: I love this metaphor, and it resonates so strongly in me. One of my questions… as we function in a world where identity politics influence real experiences of human lives, and remembering that we are much more than the politicized identities that we don't choose ourselves, that we are all interconnected... while being aware that our global issues of racism, sexism, homophobia are very context-sensitive and operate differently in US, Germany or Poland... I often think about our work as building bridges between different realities,  communities, worlds. What are the bridges that you would find important to create or you want to contribute to with your work?

RDL: It's a big question, and I don't know that I have it all figured out necessarily. But there is this notion of belonging that resonates so deeply in my spirit, and even in my research, practitioner life. People want to know that they belong and I even believe, and this might be a radical belief, that those who perpetuate this notion of hate and injustice do so from this place of not feeling like they belong. And if they don't belong, then they try to dismantle other spaces where people might connect to the feeling of belonging.

I think that this notion of belonging is for everyone and if we're able to get it (and what I mean by that is if we're able to step outside of ego into empathy, into humanity, in a way that is righteous, and open and full of love for everyone) that we would see, I believe personally, seismic shifts in how people show up in the world.

I am fascinated with understanding how do you create spaces where people feel like they belong across racial divides, across gender divides, across trends. If we were to really lean into what does it mean to create safe spaces for people to belong, I feel like it will create this ripple effect, like this butterfly effect. In the world, where you would see these big, big changes in how people show up, thereby how communities show up, thereby how society shows up, because you have created spaces for people to belong, that are safe, that are healthy, and that are open. And I think that belonging is the bridge.  I've recently come into this understanding and there is something about this notion around belonging, that I think is very central to this conversation. You can put that with anyone, people who are differently-abled, people who are struggling with mental health, depression, anxiety, thoughts of suicide: all of this is rooted in this notion of belonging, having a space that is safe, where you can go and be your authentic self, show up just as you and it's enough! That is what I am learning is the connector in all of the work that I've done with social entrepreneurs, and innovators and creators, and artists, and in all of these different spaces that I've been able to work in. What it boils down to is safe spaces and communities and groups. “I feel like I belong there, I have space there, I have room there”. That is what I see as being this bridge between all of these different worlds: this notion of belonging.

AB: These ideas of building bridges that can bring us closer to the worlds that we would like to live in, the idea of serving for a greater good and creating a world where people and not only people, other beings also, can live with dignity and respect are so close to my heart. And we happen to live in a world where there are many challenges and many difficulties. I'm curious to hear what is the biggest concern of yours when it comes to the world we live in currently? 

RDL: It's so hard, because, as you said, there are so many. And I could talk about things from the lack of opportunities for girls to go to school and get an education, I could talk about hunger, and starvation, I could talk about the disease, and famine and all of these things. But when I think about something that challenges me the most, I step back into my own experience, and my own skin, and my own identity. And I think about what does it mean to be Black in America. What does it mean to be a Black woman in America? There's no way that I could change that identity about myself - as you said, there are these politicized identities that we don't choose often. When I think about, particularly the challenges in the Black community as a whole, and the egregious violence that happens against both Black men and women and those who are nonbinary and don't identify as either… And the fact that our obesity rates, and our hypertension rates, and heart disease, and all of that are just so disproportionately larger than so many other groups in this country, is heartbreaking. And I have lived experience of what it means to fight for your existence as a Black woman in this country, and essentially lose the human side of that battle, because your body was exhausted and gave out. My own mother died from heart disease, and obesity, because she was literally carrying the weight of her identity in the world, and how she existed in this world in her physical body. And I think: as a Black woman, with this lived identity, having this experience: what is my responsibility in the fight for space, for belonging, fight to exist, to be valued, to be cherished for the brilliance and the courage and all the things that we bring to this country and into this society. Thinking about our recent political elections, thinking about women like Stacey Abrams, and she's not the only one and she will say that “I didn't do this alone, I did this in community, with millions of other people”. How do we look at the contributions that women like us have given to this country oftentimes feeding and caring for white children who grow up to then hate us and hate our own children and desire to murder them and lynch them and oppress them. It's just this continuous trauma that we experience and so for me, it never goes away. So I want to be clear, but it has been elevated in a way that I think now that I'm older. And now that I've lived a little bit and have different experiences. And it's women of the diaspora: it's not just Black women in America, but it's Afro Latina, it's Afro Caribbean… I'm trying to understand what is my role in helping this community to feel seen and heard and belong? And how do we create more space for us to be able to show up authentically?

AB: Thinking about the responsibility and how we connect with diverse struggles, and then coming back to the beginning of our conversation: that joy is where we find energy (and thank you for constantly reminding us about this!). We know how important the roles of hope and joy are in our work, that is oftentimes draining, exhausting, challenging and confronting us with a lot of suffering. Where do you find hope and joy in the work you're doing? 

RDL: I find hope and joy in my community. I find it in creating rituals with friends and myself, of spending time with each other or having conversations or laughter. In art, and the beauty of movement, and dance and sound. Those are ways that I tap back into that joy. And, I'm not just saying this, because she's this world phenomenon, but I think about Beyonce! Um, and I'm outing myself here because I literally grew up with Beyonce. I remember when she first started with Destiny's Child. People don't even know who Destiny's Child is anymore (laughs). I remember that I had the first album so I remember it wasn't just Beyonce, it was Destiny’s Child. Then I remembered her evolving over her career. Why I mentioned this is because I think that it is a part of this notion of understanding what your assignment is. Beyonce went from pop culture to this really very introspective, reflective type of communicating of her work. She got really clear on how she shows up in this world and how she wants to use her gifts to communicate the beauty and the joy and the breadth and the vastness of Black culture. The culture that is literally swept this entire globe: Black culture. Creating a space where she no longer worried about what other people are gonna think about it. And literally she created it for the purposes of us being able to like us, the world being able to celebrate this type of joy. Her newest work, “Black is king”, which is a beautiful artistic piece, just reminds me personally of where I come from, and the rich history of this. Even though I can't tell you the tribe, and I don't know, the language that I spoke, I can't tell you those things, but what I am sure of is that I come from courage and beauty and strength. Tapping into those things is what reminds me of the hope and the joy and all of this.

Yes, there's tragedy, and injustice that is happening more often than it should be happening. And there's also joy and creativity and hope and beauty and movement that we hold. That's how I create a balance between the two worlds: knowing this, and being able to go to words from Audrey Lorde, go to words from James Baldwin, or put on Nina Simone. And just really be encouraged by all of the beauty that was birthed out of pain and despair, and all of the things that these artists have been able to use and leverage for joy and for hope. So that’s my personal practice of how I navigate these two worlds.

AB: It's beautiful. And I feel that I could speak to you for the next three or even more hours and I want to be mindful of the time. There is one more question that we always close these conversations with. What is one grounding practice that helps you stay in balance? Would you be willing to share it with us?

RDL: Yeah. There is a book called “The Artist’s Way”, by Julia Cameron. And there is a practice that I adopted called “morning pages”. And it is the practice of just literally writing, no intention, no agenda, just free writing. I use that as a way for me to ground myself, to create space, even when I am unsure of what it is that I want to communicate, I just write. And oftentimes within those pages, is where I find the answers to questions that I didn't know I had. That is my practice: to just be able to get to the page and write and allow myself the freedom to be imperfect, open, and vulnerable. Without judgment.