#08 / new visions in conversation with Rosita Paulo
The Stories of Love Movement is full of joy, hope and energy. As an organisation it aims to support and mobilize young Colombians to go to university. The heart and brain behaind it - Rosita Paulo, cares deeply about education and making the world a more equal place and is commited to spreading more love and light to the world. In her own words “connecting and uniting the world one smile and a heartbeat at a time”. It was our passion for learning and un-learning that connected us back in 2018 at Decolonial Futures Summer School under the theme “Education and/for Social Innovation”.
AB: I'm thankful that just before our conversation you shared with me a bit about your current position as a lecturer and work with students, etc. because it puts a very special light on the question that I want to ask. What's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the words leadership?
RP: I definitely hear “example”. What does it mean to be an example, being human, being able to listen, and communicate? It's the responsibility to make a reality of the thoughts and wishes and ideas of the people. So it's not only what I have in mind that's going to happen, and then I find these people to do it for me, but actually more listening to the people, listening to what's happening, and finding a way to make it come true. Find a way to go ahead and plan and guide people into creating their realities. And, yeah, I think you need to be very, very human to do that. Be able to communicate, be able to listen, be able to be very kind, but also vulnerable, so that we can actually be just real in the whole process. And flexible. To be human, dare to communicate, and dare to be vulnerable. That's what I usually appreciate in leaders.
AB: Thinking about what you were saying about listening to those around you and making their thoughts dreams come true.. One of the things that we are exploring is collective leadership. As the extremely individualized idea of a leader in the eye of Western culture is ever-present, I'm wondering: when you hear “collective leadership”, what comes then? How do you understand this collective aspect of leadership?
RP: The work that I do with the foundation is very much a work of service. Of course, I have a wish, and I'll tell the youngsters: “The wish that I have is for you guys is to have options. That if you want to stay here, you stay because you want to stay here, (But if you move (leave the community), you move because you want to move)what if you want to move because you want to move?” That's like my biggest ways out of all of this. “And then everything else is how to make sure that you're going to have the option? There's a lot of space for you guys, to tell me, what does the option look like for you? And how do these roads look like? How do you want to pave those roads? Do you want to go there straight away, you want to learn extra skills? And so on. I would always make sure that we have shared goals. It's our responsibility collectively to walk towards those goals. But how are we going to do that?! By asking this question I try to invite the whole collective leadership. How we want to move together depends on that. And if something else along the way is more important we'll go left to right, to sort that out. And then we continue, again, as a team, we just have a lot of space for involvement and also different side projects. If you have an amazing idea other people will help you. And that should be possible. They become a co-leader, just as long as they're moving towards the same goal. But there are different ways to get to Rome.
AB: Do you encounter any challenges in this way of implementing leadership or practicing leadership in a collective way?
RP: A lot! I can work together really well with people and I love collective leadership. But at the same time, I also like to work alone. I try not to be a control freak, but I can easily control the space. The biggest challenges are always different ways of working, different ways of thinking, and being kind enough to allow them to exist next to each other. It's very difficult when we say “yes, we have the same goal”, but it's not always clear how we're going to work towards it. Within a (my) foundation as well, it's not even deadlines that are important for me, but more what they symbolize. So for me, finishing “this” tomorrow means that we can support 10 students. So it's not about the fact that you finish it tomorrow, it's about what it represents, or what we can do afterwards. In one way I'm the main leader, I am here to decide everything, you just have to follow - that is a very easy way to go. There is this proverb “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”. But there really are so many different ways to get there, and they're not necessarily wrong. They're just different. And I want to share leadership, I see myself as equal to others.
We have to equalize the playing field, so in that case, I would also have to give up a bit more power for you to do it your way. And I just have to trust that we're working towards the same goal. But it does not mean that these kinds of things do not make it complicated sometimes, and I really have to bring myself back to “this is what we're doing”. And be patient, celebrate victories and moments in between. Not only focus on the goal but also look back and see how we actually moved five centimeters. This in itself is an accomplishment as well.
AB: When we talk about equalizing the space and sharing power, what are your approaches towards that and your practices within the team?
RP: I keep repeating: ”we're doing it together. We're doing it together and your thoughts and your brain are just as valid as mine or anybody else's” and really try to practice it. So even, for example, if something happens, not in a way that I would like to see it or expected, but it doesn't necessarily influence the whole process of coworking negatively, I try to just let it happen and sharing the power in that way. I also sometimes go back to moments where I felt like my voice wasn't heard and how that felt and trying not to do that to somebody else. I just very consciously invite people to work together and understand the different ways that we can do it. And also remember when I felt excluded, or my voice was not important enough, and how that made me feel, and try to eradicate those moments and thoughts and feelings as much as possible. And if they do occur - we will reorganize the space, or talk about it collectively. I do not see myself as the center of everything, because it's not about me, it's about our common goal. I believe that somebody else can also do it too and I know that I have a lot of things that are great, too. And that I know that because of me, we can do so many other things. But I also believe that there are so many other amazing people who can also do it. It is about serving a goal and not necessarily my ego.
AB: It's just so important what you are saying, Within the field of work that is focused on social justice, this conversation is so essential. It's not about me, and it is about me at the same time. I'm curious to hear, knowing that you work in the field of education, that inclusion is a very important aspect for you. I'm curious to hear what were the formational experiences that brought you to this place, what was so influential that you decided to work around these topics?
RP: Yeah, I think many things. My mom came here to the Netherlands as a refugee, because of the war we had to forcefully move. You arrive at a totally new place where there's not a lot of space to understand who you are as a person but mainly maintain the image they have of you as an immigrant or refugee. This is very pivotal. My mother got ill quite soon after we arrived, so I grew up in foster families. I encountered so many experiences of being alone. And also feeling like I was alone in the world because I moved families so often. There was instability, I didn't feel like my voice was always heard. Sometimes families were really nice, but then the bureau would decide to replace me and take me somewhere else. There were many moments of not feeling heard, that my ideas, or how I feel or my experiences don't matter at all, because I don't really have a voice. And then a lot of stereotypes of what kind of person you are, what are your chances etc. I think I exceeded a lot of expectations that people had of my life. And especially I think it was the last family that I lived with. I really want to believe that she offers this place to people who are in need because she is a good person, (but I also think that there were ulterior motives). For me, it wasn't really a very safe, nice place to live in, and also full of manipulation. Even though she received money to buy food for us, I also think that she kept much of it, because there wasn’t always enough food. Money that I could use to visit my mother who lived in a care home, to get proper food etc.. So at a very young age, I learned to work extremely hard to have money to buy my own food, to visit my mother. And then I wanted to go study, so I had to find money to be able to go to the University and then save money in order to pay rent for a room, etc. So all of this: feeling that you had to forcefully move, being an enormous outsider, and feeling extremely excluded. So during many moments, I felt like my voice had no say whatsoever, and I had to work extremely hard just to get a lot of things that many people don't even realize are not that common. Not everybody grows up in a secure setting, not everybody grows up in a situation where you can just think, “I would love to be this, I would love to try this out”, and then it's quite possible. But at the same time, even though it was very challenging, there were some people who had a very crucial role in my life. People who made me realize “okay, I'm not here by myself”. It was something I would not expect. I remember there was a director in our secondary school that kind of said: “I'm gonna protect this girl”. He was making sure to have enough conversation about my needs and wellbeing with me, and really checking on me, how am I doing. And at the same time helping me to find jobs. I worked so many jobs in that school! Everything that I could do, that I could earn money to then go visit my mother or buy food and so on. Those types of people show me how important it is when there is somebody who just looks out for you, there is somebody who tries to find possibilities and ways for you to do the things that you would like to do. What I do now with the foundation is almost like paying it back, understanding how crucial those different people were for me. I really would like to be the type of person or do the things that would compliment that type of behavior, that type of feeling for other people that may be in the need of the same kind of help. And at the same time, just fundamentally understanding how important it is to be seen and how important it is to feel the connection and how important it is to be aware of this. I think this is one of the fundamental things in life. Because we do so much, we want so much, we have so many ideas of what an amazing life looks like, what you're supposed to have, but I feel also when you grow up in a situation where those things aren't there as a basic thing, that you really have to work so much to actually get those things. And maybe I was lucky enough to also realize how it is not to have them and then that other things are so important. So then when I finally have them, I know I can focus on other things. Now I have my home, I have my bike, I have enough. I can eat now, I studied things that I wanted to study. If I want to travel I can do it. ‘’Okay, so now what’s important for me at this moment?’’: connection.
I want people to see each other, to have options as well. Realizing how important it was when there was somebody who saw me, there was somebody who could hear me. And I wanted to make sure that as many people as possible, get to experience that feeling because it's extremely rich. And it makes you feel so loved. And so supported. And that is that feeling of security and hope as well.
AB: Thank you for sharing this story and for your trust. It's really powerful and also beautiful to see how you continue sharing your gifts.
RP: Yes, I can work so hard, of course, but I also really noticed that I learned to live in survival mode because I had to survive literally: physically, mentally on so many different levels. That's why I do so many things at the same time. As a young child, I had no idea when I would have to move again. I’m very sociable, I can talk to people easily and so on. It's a beautiful thing. But I learned it because sometimes I would live with a family that wasn't nice enough, so I needed to know enough people to go to after school and stay there as long as possible. Then I had to go back because I was still a minor. Now that I don't need to survive anymore, I'm learning how to live. It is very interesting to realise how different and difficult it is. I am learning how to live, I am learning now how not to do many things out of fear, that there's not enough, there's not enough time...etc. Or that I cannot trust anybody. I am learning to either say no, or not to be extremely thankful. I also had to learn how my background, living with my skin color… taught me that you have to overly show yourself and compensate for so many things. I already proved to people that I can learn, that I can do stuff. Now I am learning how to live. It is an interesting process, a lot of it doesn't come naturally. I find myself going back to either doing too much or planning with fear being very present in my head. I am learning to really just love every day.
AB: I have a feeling that what you're sharing now requires such high self-awareness. Building on what you shared right while learning how to live happily and not out of fear, I'm wondering what is this that currently concerns you the most about the world we live in?
RP: Everything that's happening now to a lot of people who live in marginalized positions is very difficult. Months ago, when the Black Life Matters movement was very present, there were many demonstrations and actions we'll never forget. And it can feel just so emotionally draining. I had no energy because usually, I work with the topic myself, so I have my guards up. Sometimes is too much to take for a human being. Too much to carry all of that and still live a regular life. But I found it extremely heavy and difficult to look at. In a world where one is systematically excluded from things and not seen as human to a certain extent. So you ask yourself “When is going to be the end of it? How will it stop? Can we just acknowledge that we are humans?” I worry about disconnection. And I find it scary to see how easy it is not to feel or recognize the connection that we have to one another.
Many people from Eastern Europe come to work here, either for a season or a year. A couple of days ago I watched a program talking about housing problems. They are trying to build a new place where people can move and live safely while they work in the Netherlands. There was some kind of survey about migrant workers from either Poland or Romania. People were very angry answering the questions: “of course they need to live somewhere, just nowhere near me! Nowhere where it is uncomfortable for me!”. It is terrifying to see how easy it is for us human beings to say it. In the West, in places where people live in the abundance of money, of privilege, or whatever it is, they find it very easy, so easy not to feel the connection and to speak about other people in that way. Whether it's about racism, whether it's about migration, whether it is about gender, we often forget that we are all human beings and we are connected to each other. And I can understand that you cannot or should not worry about everything all the time, but at least I would hope that we can recognize the connection, and then say, “I'm just scared because I feel like the world has changed so much, and I'm just scared of what's going to happen if they come and live here”. Then I understand. You're just afraid of the unknown. Instead of saying, “I don't want to see them. It's okay that they exist, just nowhere in my radius/vicinity". It's mainly the disconnection that concerns me the most, and how easily we speak about it, or don't speak about it.
AB: We're just watching the interview with Vandana Shiva yesterday. She was talking about the separation and how it starts with this idea that humans are separated from the earth and how this then is projected on this idea that I'm separated from somebody that has different skin color than me or that has another gender or etc, etc, and how it builds on one another. There's also this quote exactly talking about how hatred is actually covering pain and fear. (“I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they sense, once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain.” James Baldwin) And how it's just much easier to hate somebody than to dig deeper into what's happening there inside of you.
RP: Because you have to look at yourself: Why am I scared? What is it triggering me? What is it touching me? When it's coming up? And what does it feel like when I have no control over things? If it is just hate it is not only fundamentally wrong, but this person is doing something to me instead of realizing that there's already fear in them. So my presence is triggering something that has been there all along. ‘’Yeah, hatred is so much easier. Because it's not me. If you disappear, everything's gonna be okay. At least, that is what we think.’’
AB: It's also exactly what you said: this trick of control. I oftentimes think about our work as a work of connection and reconnection. , and oftentimes also share it this way. Also, the work of education that you're doing, thinking about what kind of narratives you elevate and which ones you don't need or want to give so much space, etc. And I'm wondering in this world that we live in, what kind of bridges would you like to contribute to or build or what kind of bridges do you see that we need?
RP: Beautiful. I will start by coming back to indigenous knowledges of seeing each other and bring it to interconnectivity, to really understand that we are in relation with one another. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is a burden of yours. Not at all.
Just recognizing that we usually feel the same things, we go through the same things and therefore, there should be space for kindness, there should be space for listening. And there should be allowed space for love. Active participation in inclusion in any way you can.
I chose to combine it with the person that I am and the work that I do. Choosing to work in education where I see students every day, and I get to be part of their knowledge creation, I hope that l can put seeds of seeing the other, seeds of the connection that they're going to take with them in their service: with their friends, with the family members and of course the people that they are going to work with. Be the example you would like to see in the world - and all those horrible catchphrases (laughs). Very important. And then it's something that I'm experimenting with now, I'm researching and trying to feel what radical freedom means to me, what radical being means to me. What is left if I let go of all those jackets and masks that I put on when I'm supposed to be this or that person? Learning to allow these ideas to even exist in my head without thinking "oh my god... How does it feel for me to allow myself to have these thoughts? Can I have the same kindness for other people to have it as well (radical freedom) and then respect their ways of being? Yes, so interconnectivity and making sure that as many people as possible can be, can live and can have the choice to be. The way you think, the way you look at people so that you don't add to that feeling of hatred. It's like the easiest way I think, and the cheapest way to do it. If you have money, then please donate or help people to make it even extra possible. If you want to go all the way, make it into your work, where you live and breathe all of it every day. But yeah, just
choose love, be love: for yourself, if you can: for the other people as well. And maybe it's very utopian, but I really want to believe that that's at least the first big step that we can take. And if I myself don't add to a world of separability, then I think I've lived a very good life.
AB: I love utopias and I think we need to cultivate them in our minds because that's the only way they can happen in the real world. Without that, we'll never get there. Talking about utopias, what is this that brings you hope? How do you cultivate hope when confronted with sometimes very harsh reality. What are these places for you to find hope or cultivate hope or what's the role of hope in your practice?
RP: It is very important. What gives me hope is definitely seeing so many examples of people practicing hope, trying to be positive. I'm also learning to appreciate time, to look back sometimes and just see how much I have changed, how much situations have changed. I feel like the younger generation: those in their teens, beginning 20s bring me hope because they grew up with so much knowledge and also access to knowledge. And I already see how they're changing a lot of ways of thinking, so many topics now can be spoken about. I feel that there is such a big difference between a group and a collective especially connected with hatred or fear, but what brings me hope is that I always make sure to spend a lot of my time talking to people, talking to individuals, because that's when I really see the humanity, I can feel so connected with them, and then just realize, that within all the streets, masses, groups of people there is a bunch of individuals with the same feelings of love, fear, insecurities and so on. Never forget to see people for people as they are, as an individual. There's so much that I don't know. And also if I just choose to let go of the negative, then I'm blinding myself because even the story behind the negative can also be a connection point for us. And there is so much more understanding and hopefully also a feeling of safety and security between the two of us. So: find a connection, and understand that we live in a different way, but the core is still the same. And maybe then you know, it becomes easier to find another way that is more filled with love and not hatred.
AB: When I listen to you speaking, I'm also thinking about the name of the organization that you founded: The Stories of Love movement.
RP: Yeah. And the idea really is that if we can do as much of what we do from a place of love, that's the first step! And then everything that we do becomes movements. And this is moving forward. I want to contribute to something, hopefully, I'm going to influence you, to inspire you, and you're going to do it yourself. When I have a movement of a bunch of stories that are derived and influenced by love, that's... yeah. And education is a part of it because it's still the easiest and most effective way for people to acquire positions of having a choice. That you can choose how you want to design your life. And whether it is to stay exactly where you are - perfectly fine. And if you want to go somewhere else, you have the choice to go there. And then to have the choice to go back halfway if you wish to do it differently. And that's really what I hope to contribute: more people to feel like they have a choice to be, to move, to go back, to pivot, to sit, to stand, to dance. And that's all okay. You can put on a mask and take off a mask, you can protect yourself, you can show yourself.
AB: Oh I love it! And it makes me think of your last newsletter that I received. The first video is just you saying: “okay, we're doing hard work, but we never forget about dancing”. And then there's the video of you all dancing and this is just so cool. Because we are sometimes getting so strict and boring about our work, like “Oh, we should be more serious…” but no! That’s not even us!
RP: Thanks for sharing that! And of course, this way of thinking, this way of working, what I noticed in my work with my organization, it definitely takes so much more time. If you want to go fast, yeah, you just have to do this and that. Yeah, it's a very beautiful way of living and being but it takes more time to get to the goal. But what I really have learned and I am still learning is: it's really about the process. I feel like if we grow in the whole process that's actually very cool in itself. Regarding studying, of course, I wanted to do something, but during my whole masters, I was just freaking curious about myself and other people. My first bachelor, I felt it was like four years of therapy for me. Yeah, I learned about the development of people, psychology, pedagogy, how to communicate. And I just use the whole stuff to understand myself. So working this way takes up much more time, but I do feel that the process might even be the most important thing. Because as you work towards your goal, you really get to be your goal.
AB: It's also a different depth of the work. You go fast, you don't see what's around and you don't know what you passed through, you cannot remember this person, this tree, this house. And if you're really walking mindfully, you know what you went through, and it's totally different depth. And I also believe that it's just so crucial to know who you are when doing educational and social justice work because otherwise, it's really dangerous.
RP: Very much and I don't want to be that way. But I've had moments of frustration when it comes to deadlines, communicating, and so on. As much as I would like it to be different, I'm still just human, I was formed in a certain place at a certain time in history, with a certain type of knowledge. And I'm also learning so much, I think that's why the process is so rich but very painful sometimes, very confrontational. If things don't go the way I would like them to go, it does something to me. Luckily, I can work it through and come back stronger.
AB: I resonate with that so much, too, especially when it comes to this efficiency thing. When we founded an organization, we were very clear, we want to do education, for diversity, for inclusion, anti-discrimination education, we want to do work that would challenge the current system, that would challenge capitalism. And in certain moments, we were challenging capitalism working 60 hours a week! How did we get there?! And then you realize that you try to challenge something, and you just reproduce exactly the same thing.
RP: And it's really horrible. It's so difficult to get out of it, right?
AB: Yes, but we are working on that. One step at a time. And maybe you can share some of your ideas. I believe that oftentimes this work is draining and challenging and feels difficult and lonely. I would like to ask you, what are your grounding practices that you implement in your life, or what is this that helps you stay in balance?
RP: Beautiful question. I have one that is accessible for everybody, and I have a very privileged one. This one first: traveling. It's privileged because it takes time, it takes money. I use travel traveling as therapy. It makes me grounded because I get to leave my environment, I get to go somewhere where I'm not part of the norm whatsoever. I don't know anybody, I can be by myself. And I can explore a bunch of different things. There's silence and don't have to report to anybody. There's no restriction whatsoever. I get to meet new people and talk to them. And they don't know me or the place where I come from. I need to adjust how I communicate to them. And that whole process has helped me to reflect and understand myself in a different way. Travelling is for me a very peaceful way to grow myself and to be in contact with people and being somewhere else completely. The other one is more accessible: breathing. To really take the time to just breathe. Breathe, talk to yourself and feel what's going on in your body. Dancing brings me a lot of joy, and singing. And my new relationship: I really, really love what we have. Just talking to him is a really nice thing to do for me, to have his perspective. And cooking. I feel like whole my body gets more peaceful with time. And whenever I can, I try to turn around and go somewhere else to a new place and be a new version of myself, reflect on what I have done and just connect with people. And I go back to find this connection to connectivity actually. Exchange.
AB: Beautiful.
RP: So I got all levels covered.
AB: Yeah, exactly. By myself, with others, with my beloved one. Everything is there.
RP: Yes, and walking is always a good one. Oh, so nice talking to you!