#05 / new visions in conversation with Olivia Hyunsin Kim
Olivia Hyunsin Kim (올리비아 Hyunsin 金), is an artist based in Berlin, Frankfurt am Main, and Seoul.
We met as participants of Young Curators Academy organized by Maxim Gorki Theatre in Berlin, bringing together international programme makers from around the world, who work at the intersection of art and activism.
In this conversation we explore, among other things, Hyunsin's path to the work that she is doing, the structural inequalities of the art world, practices of challenging and transforming these structures, the role of artists in social justice movements, notions of individual and collective leadership.
Photo credit: Christian Cattelan
LJ: I would like to start with asking you to tell a little bit about yourself. Who you are and how you see your place in the world?
OHK: I work as an artist, especially I see myself as a choreographer. Not just choreography as bodily movement, but also choreographing situations, where you can get the feeling that the situation that is currently happening, and which might be uncomfortable, is actually affecting us all. That it is not the binary of - there are the people who are being affected, and then there are the people who can look at it. For me, that's one important part. And then I also work in different cultural and political initiatives and organizations to basically bring more diversity and inclusion, not in the fancy buzzword kind of sense, but to create spaces for more representation and presentation of marginalized bodies.
LJ: And how did you come to do this work? What does your path towards it look like?
OHK: I think it comes from my own experience a little bit. Being here in Germany, partially growing up here, and seeing how much exclusion is happening if you do not belong to a certain type of body. Let's say in the dance scene, where it is often of course the able-bodied and/or the White body. And if you do not belong to this normative type, then you're always being either shown under a special light, which has often to do with exotification and a kind of extension of the colonial view on the body. Then there was also my own experience of exclusion and discrimination, and through talking to other colleagues who are from marginalized communities realizing that what is happening with me is not an individual thing. That it is a structural thing which denies access or makes you need to work really, really, really hard to get that access to being in the performing arts scene.
LJ: Let's build on this and talk a bit more about the arts scene. How do you see the role or agency of artists in challenging these structures? Both in the arts scene, but also beyond, as the structural that you mention is of course not just an issue in the art world.
OHK: I think art gives us space, where alternatives could be possible. I don't think that art provides that as a rule, but it can give a space for imagination. It's maybe the first space where it could happen, compared to, say, politics. I also used to work more in politics back when I was younger. I wanted to go to the United Nations and do aid work. I also worked a bit in the Justice Department and things like this (laughs). But there were a lot of bureaucratic processes and I realized that even if change were to happen, it will take ages. And then these spaces are also very performative in the way that you always need to be, let's say, diplomatic and quiet, pick your words very well, so they don't cause too much trouble and there can be at least some little change. Not to undermine that completely, but I had the feeling that art can imagine the frame of change a bit better.
For me that's the potential of art. That it can reimagine things and bring in perspectives that have not been talked about so much elsewhere, also because you have the freedom to try and fail, as usually there are no irreversible consequences in art. I don't think art changes the world or theatre changes the world. These places can also be very violent. But it can be the place to restructure things, think things new, try them out and see if that goes, which then maybe opens some new perspectives.
LJ: I resonate with that a lot. And would be interested to hear more about your path, in the sense - are there moments you would see as, lets say, moments of obligation, where it became clear that you need to join the political organisations, or then later do the work that you are doing now?
OHK: When I was younger, I wanted to create a better world, you know, these dreams that the world can change and you want to be one of the changemakers. Not to be too pessimistic, I think that's still a nice thought. And it is a fuel but you also become more realistic with age, I have the feeling (laughs). Which I see as a transition from a utopia bubble to seeing things more clearly. And for me the thing that I'm focusing on right now is fuelled by hope that no one else needs to go through the different kinds of discrimination, which I or my colleagues have faced. But here I also want to acknowledge that, of course, we are already benefiting from the people who came and fought before us. That's also why I'm here today, but still - I don't want others to go through this violence. Which may be sexual violence, may be violence based on racism, or xenophobia, or heteronormativity, you know, I just don't want that. People don't need to experience this again. This is such a powerful mechanism, which has been there for such a long time trying to oppress, and I think it's time to tackle it on different levels. And that's why I'm focusing on this.
LJ: And what would you say is the core of your work in this focus area?
OHK: If I go into, let's say, the -isms, regardless of what it is exactly, it is to follow the intersectional, queer feminist and post-colonial threads. And these are very big words, I know. But may it be an art piece or an initiative that we are pushing, we try to reflect these views. To go beyond the separation. For example, if it's a person of color, it's being called diversity. And if it's a person with disability, it's being called inclusion. At least in Germany, and for me it is very weird, because I do not think these things are necessarily to be separated. I feel this is again done by the same mechanism which wants to divide. So for me one other focus is also thinking of how to bring different groups together without erasing the difference of their experiences. Yet another thing is thinking about how the arts funding is structured. For instance, there used to be an intercultural project fund here in Berlin, and it was basically to bring people with a migration background, as they call it in Germany, into the theatre scene so they can do performances that explore identity. But in the beginning the funding was limited to 20,000 euros. And in the dance scene there was this initiative called Runder Tisch Tanz, and I was in the working group Diversity. And the Berlin Senat people, basically those who give the money, were also there. So one thing I criticized and we opposed together was the amount of money because I don't understand why there is the normal art budget with basically no limit, and why this has to have a limitation. And then also urging to rethink this fund so it addresses different marginalized people, and people who are marginalized in intersecting ways - for instance, both living with a disability, and having “migration background”; and that they are not required to touch the theme of their identities, and are allowed to do something else, if they want. Because that's usually the role of marginalized people in the art scene - to talk about themselves and their situations and make them consumable in a way.
LJ: You are bringing up so many crucial things of what is skewed in the structures of the art world, and also how to challenge these structures and push the walls. And I am sure there is more. Could you continue a little more on this topic?
OHK: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this was just one example. And there are many others. There is the question of being inside or outside of the system. Like, it's often framed that there is no competition, but in the end, if you work with state funds, it is a competition, and you are within and in a way supporting the system. Then you can of course say - yeah, so, why don't you just be outside of the system? But marginalized communities have been outside of the funding system for so long that in a way they also need to be inside there. Moreover, this question is usually never asked to the others, who have always been there and benefited from it.
Another example from my experience - when I tried to get into acting school here, one thing they had a big issue with was not only my age, I was 23 already and 23 was the limit, but also that I was not marketable, because I'm not white. It was basically said that I'm lacking German depth, and I have something Asian inside me. I think in another job I could sue them. I don't know if I would win, but I could sue them. But because it's art, it's okay. It's subjective. It means something different and you can say these things to a 23 year old who's just gonna start.
And I keep seeing these patterns repeating again and again. When I was doing my masters, a very famous curator in our curation seminar said - there is nothing to see in India, she's been there for three weeks, and didn't see anything interesting. And I'm like - do you know how big India is? Have you actually tried to get out of your bubble and try to understand or see? Or saying things like - if you don't have money, just invite a production from South Korea, because they're really eager to send their artists to Europe, to the West, so they're gonna pay for everything. Things like that.
Photo credit: Maciej Jrusinek
Photo credit: Christian Cattelan
And there is change happening in recent years, but still very slow. The reason that I am in the dance scene is also in a way impacted by all this. Because I didn't want to play stereotypical roles in theatre, or there were no roles for me at all. And still, even here I'm one of very, very few. And this is also something I'm trying to tackle a little bit. Like, I participated in this online discussion with other choreographers, talking about the different struggles we are facing and what needs to happen, how to create diversity and accept it. And yes, it was very broad. Because it's not that you can just practice diversity in one thing. It is not diversity just because all of the sudden Salome is played by a Chinese-German girl. That's one step of many. It needs to be tackled on so many other levels, to really create access. And then one person got so mad, saying "What is this? We're talking about your different problems, and I don't know where we're going because you're talking about so many different things, and it is a total waste of time, and I will take it to the board and there will be consequences." And I mean, yes, we can talk about whether it was too broad or not, but the threatening, and the "waste of time" rhetoric, and the "your problems" - I have heard it so often. As if it would be individualistic problems. Even in this case, we were four different choreographers with different backgrounds - some of us grew up here as persons of colour, some moved here, but we all faced similar issues. These are not individual problems, even though it is so often switched to that.
LJ: What you are visibilizing here and illustrating with examples is so rich and so necessary to bring to light over and over again, and I can imagine that it can also be so exhausting, because as you say - these are things that you encounter and hear again and again. And as you already mentioned - people have encountered before you as well. To pick up on this and move in a little bit different direction - what for me seems to weave through the personal vs. structural, the generational thing that you mentioned, and the different aspects of diversity is the notion of interconnectedness, and addressing these issues in connection, through building bridges between these things. So my question is about this - who or what do you build bridges with, and what role does the notion of community play in your work and life?
OHK: I think this can be addressed on many different levels. I am an active member in certain organizations that are fighting against different kinds of discrimination, and also getting involved in, let's call them pop-up initiatives, because something has happened and then we get together to tackle this particular problem.
What I have learned in the past two years is also the power of the internet - how much online communities can do. Not to erase the physical gatherings, but that people can also come together online to tackle a problem and this dimension was quite interesting for me.
And then what I am thinking about a lot is generations. A lot of fights that came before have not been documented or told. And only, like, in a couple of years, I have learned more and more about the different fights of migrant communities.
The initiatives of South Korean nurses called "Koreanische Frauengruppe in Deutschland", who came during the 60s and 70s to West Germany, and were then going to be forced to leave. How a big group of them got together and said "First you take us and then you just say - leave. We're not things, we are humans". They engaged in protests and actions, and collected signatures from the public and could stay in the end. And the women in a South Korean factory which was also tied to German companies, who were working in horrific conditions and were also about to be fired, and then started protesting, but of course protests in South Korea were faced with fines, so protests started also in Germany and actually made it into the news, which followed with the company retrieving their decision. This was not a big group, they had no big name for their movement or influence, but they did have this power of coming together.
And to see this, that there have been different fights going on, which I've never been taught, that there are all these people that came before me, whom I might never know, creates this solidarity or bond, which keeps on going. It changed my thinking. Ok, this sucks, but because of the fights, because of the people who came before me, I am here. And I can continue part of the fight. And also think of the generation right now, and what is not told here. Like how hyphenated German artists are being exchanged with international artists, because for Germany it's easier to talk about colonialism when it's not about German colonialism, but the colonialism, which the UK did, for instance. It's a trend that has been there for years, but not talked about much. So we need to get together and talk about it, know about it. Even if there is this guy who in his white fragility is trying to use his power to make us shut up, we will not shut up. If we need, we're gonna raise our voice and protest. Because it's not just about my community. It affects everyone.
LJ: Of course, I see it through my lens, but all these things that you are talking about - for me those are examples of transformative leadership. What does the word leadership mean for you?
OHK: I was very interested in leadership when I was younger, and working in these different, more politically oriented, organizations, where leadership was a big theme. Right now in the independent theatre scene there is the trend of collectives as leaders. To share the power, and to share the work. And that challenges what leadership was in my mind. Like, you know, all these books that I read from Hillary Clinton, Condoleezza Rice, and alike (laughs), they all basically center the single leader figure. And I think both of these have a value. I was watching the Berlin years of Audrey Lorde, and there's this one part where at the end of one of her talks she asked all black women, or was it black people, to stay, to meet. And of course not only because of this, but partly because of this the initiative for Black people in Germany (Initiative Schwarze Menschen in Deutschland) was made later on, and consequently one of the reasons why the younger generation right now has the support they have is because of this initiative.
LJ: This reminds me of the story you were sharing in the walk about the talk of Martin Luther King in this church, and what effect that had, for instance, on Prague Spring. I see this also as an example of the relationship between the individual and collective. Could you talk more about the collective aspect of leadership and its potential to challenge power structures?
OHK: Yeah, true, it's a similar story. And about collective challenging power. I would say it does and is a way to rethink power, but not always. I mean, I'm also working collectively, but I'm working under my name, if I work artistically. And I made this decision, because I saw so many collectives that in the end were not really working collectively. There would still be one or some, who are more responsible, and take most of the burden and then burn out, while others enjoy a free ride. This is a bad example, I know. But I experienced this and saw others experience it, as it is not so easy to actually share responsibility equally. And then even when we think about individual leaders, it is still a collective. I mean, Martin Luther King Jr. had many companions, such as Mahalia Jackson, for instance. Audrey Lorde did also. And then I am thinking about these triggering moments, which create all these effects afterwards. Like, with Audrey Lorde, this thought that - Okay, there is a very dispersed scene right now here in Germany. And I'm here. I'm having the time. I'm having the power right now. And the platform to share with other people to make this meeting happen. What an effect it had. I think the fact that Germany had the second biggest Black Lives Matter protests after the US is also in some way rooted in this one moment.
LJ: It has been so inspiring to talk with you. And yet our time is coming to the end, and I would like to ask two more things. Firstly, what is your relationship with spirituality?
OHK: It's complicated (laughs). Also because this is one stereotype that I face - to be spiritual, because of Buddha and all this. But I do indeed have quite a connection with spirituality. Thinking about how to decolonize spirituality that it is not oppressive, but empowering. Having little moments of rest. And then I think there is also a spiritual aspect in what you call interconnectedness, and also the bond with different generations. That there must be so many people, who have fought for the different things I am able to do. And most of them I will never know, but there is this connectedness and gratefulness, which I think can also be seen as a spiritual connection.
When it comes to religion, I grew up Protestant, but my dad's family was very Buddhist, and there was always a clash of religions. And while spirituality is not necessarily religion, being exposed to different religions did something.
And then more and more in my own work, I'm getting more interested in shamanism, which was very present, or is also still very present in Korea and in all the other religions which came after. And there one key aspect is that you, of course, honour your ancestors.
LJ: Thank you for this. And as you already mentioned the moments of rest, I would like to finish by asking if you would be open to share a practice of yours that brings you a moment of rest or groundedness.
OHK: Yes, one thing is that in the morning I try to take some time for myself. At least 5 or 10 minutes, these little moments. And then another thing that is important for me is to practice thinking that it is okay that I'm not everywhere. I got really exhausted last year from all the different things that I was pushing for. I think at that time when we were in Maxim Gorky I also said “I'm not exotic, but I'm exhausted”. This was written on a placard, when people in the early 90s were protesting against the musical Miss Saigon and it's racist and sexist depiction of the old tale of a white savior with a virgin Asian, and it just expressed what I was feeling back then so strongly. So, yeah, trying to pull myself back a bit from these different initiatives to reflect a bit and accept, which is the difficult part for me, that I cannot be everywhere. And maybe that's okay.